Lubricant Recommendations

Discussions related to motor & gear oils, greases, anti-freezes, etc.
Packard V12
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:39 pm

Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by Packard V12 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:08 am

[quote=" it is undesirable to use a high detergent oil that holds fine particles in suspension in stead of allowing them to sink to the bottom of the sump."...quote]

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cant imagine more dangerous, destructive advice. As I noted in another post in this "thread" unlike many more modern engines, Packard motors do not have "floating" oil pump pick-ups. They suck oil from the very lowest region of the oil pan.

At the risk of repeating myself, I again recommend if you care about your Packard's motor, "drop" the oil pan at least every couple of years, so that what is sucked into those bearing surfaces is clean, fresh oil.

Yes - the pre-war "Senior" Packard oil pans ("standard" eight, super eight, and twelve) all have a little plate on their oil pans directly underneath the oil pump. Good idea to un-bolt that at every oil change and see what, if anything, is getting sucked in. While that is a good start, the problem is, those big long oil cast aluminum oil pans have baffles and webs that keep all sludge and grit from being drained out if you just change the oil.

For those who are serious about saving their Packard motors, I strongly recommend reading the publications of the SAE ( Society Of Automotive Engineers ). Many of their articles are written in laymen terms - where you rid yourself of the destructive beliefs of old-wives tales and those of "back-yard mechanics".

Adam
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Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:15 am
Location: lincolnshire, uk

Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by Adam » Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:21 am

Packard V12 wrote:[quote=" it is undesirable to use a high detergent oil that holds fine particles in suspension in stead of allowing them to sink to the bottom of the sump."...quote]

============================================================================================
cant imagine more dangerous, destructive advice. As I noted in another post in this "thread" unlike many more modern engines, Packard motors do not have "floating" oil pump pick-ups. They suck oil from the very lowest region of the oil pan.

At the risk of repeating myself, I again recommend if you care about your Packard's motor, "drop" the oil pan at least every couple of years, so that what is sucked into those bearing surfaces is clean, fresh oil.

Yes - the pre-war "Senior" Packard oil pans ("standard" eight, super eight, and twelve) all have a little plate on their oil pans directly underneath the oil pump. Good idea to un-bolt that at every oil change and see what, if anything, is getting sucked in. While that is a good start, the problem is, those big long oil cast aluminum oil pans have baffles and webs that keep all sludge and grit from being drained out if you just change the oil.

For those who are serious about saving their Packard motors, I strongly recommend reading the publications of the SAE ( Society Of Automotive Engineers ). Many of their articles are written in laymen terms - where you rid yourself of the destructive beliefs of old-wives tales and those of "back-yard mechanics".
[/quote][/quote]


If you did indeed read some of the SAE papers, you would know that modern oils , particularly those formulated for diesel engines, do indeed have a high 'detergent' formulation to hold fine particles and other products of combustion in suspension, for capture at the full-flow filter. Since early engines do not have full-flow filtration, recirculation of these abrasive particles is a disadvantage. Hence the reason for using a lower detergent oil, which will allow the particles to fall from suspension. The accumulation of which, is the stuff you so strongly recommend removal of the oil pan to clean out. Exactly as the engine designer intended.

Modern oils are superior to those of yore in every possible way. But when they are designed for extended drain intervals (100,000 kilometres plus in heavy truck engines) and full-flow high micronic-rate filtration, certain features can be less than optimal. Nevertheless, filling an older engine with modern high-spec oil will certainly yield greater protection than any product from the first half of the 20th century. My remarks above were in response to a question regarding the efficacy of synthetic oils.
"Do not underestimate the English cousin.....they are not as stupid as they look!" - Signor Altabani in The Italian Job.

Packard V12
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:39 pm

Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by Packard V12 » Sat Oct 08, 2016 6:08 pm

For Adam - English fellow:

Thank you for your post of yesterday ( 10-07) . Yes, I agree with you on some points you made. But definitely disagree on others.

First of all - you English are not our cousins - we are BLOOD BROTHERS ! Sorry we got into that squabble about the tea tax......just think..it was only 10% - I personally think we should have paid it...had we...we'd still be English at here in
the colonies....!

Who told you that "early engines did not have full flow oil filters ? Well...how "early" is early ? By the early 1930's, most every manufacturer of hi value high performance motors installed full-flow oil filters as standard equipment. My 1936 American La France V-12 had two of them ! All of the "big" Packards starting with the 1934 model year had them. ( I take that back - early year 1934 Packard V12 production didn't get them as standard equipment till late production) Of course the "economy" Packards did not. I don't know much about the "cheaper" or "junior" Packards..not clear whether they even had oil filters at all ? ?

You are wrong if you think it is beneficial to use "lower detergent" oils. EVER ! I presume that means oil that does not have the "meets manufactuerers specifications" stamp on it "Single grade" oOil that dosnt state on the can that it meets specs., can become thick when cold - not giving good ring and bearing lubrication. It can thin out to water when hot. So called "multi-grade" oils must meet viscosity specs. both when cold and when hot.

Not clear where you got the idea that some oils have different "suspension" chacteristics. Oil is oil, and particles are particles. What, for lack of a more accurate term, we call "detergent" oils do not hold particles in suspension any differently than a "non-detergent" oil. What they DO have, is chemicals that prevent the "linking up" of carbon particles that cause sludge.

Bottom line - it is a very easy job to "drop" the oil pan of any "senior" Packard built before the 1940 model year. I noted elsewhere I recommend this should be done at least every two years . The oil pump intake is at the lowest portion of the oil pan - by cleaning it at regular intervals, you guarantee the oil pump never starts ingesting abrasive sludge.

Adam
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Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:15 am
Location: lincolnshire, uk

Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by Adam » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:04 am

Packard V12 wrote:For Adam - English fellow:


Who told you that "early engines did not have full flow oil filters ? Well...how "early" is early ? By the early 1930's, most every manufacturer of hi value high performance motors installed full-flow oil filters as standard equipment. My 1936 American La France V-12 had two of them ! All of the "big" Packards starting with the 1934 model year had them. ( I take that back - early year 1934 Packard V12 production didn't get them as standard equipment till late production) Of course the "economy" Packards did not. I don't know much about the "cheaper" or "junior" Packards..not clear whether they even had oil filters at all ? ?

You are wrong if you think it is beneficial to use "lower detergent" oils. EVER ! I presume that means oil that does not have the "meets manufactuerers specifications" stamp on it "Single grade" oOil that dosnt state on the can that it meets specs., can become thick when cold - not giving good ring and bearing lubrication. It can thin out to water when hot. So called "multi-grade" oils must meet viscosity specs. both when cold and when hot.

Not clear where you got the idea that some oils have different "suspension" chacteristics. Oil is oil, and particles are particles. What, for lack of a more accurate term, we call "detergent" oils do not hold particles in suspension any differently than a "non-detergent" oil. What they DO have, is chemicals that prevent the "linking up" of carbon particles that cause sludge.

Bottom line - it is a very easy job to "drop" the oil pan of any "senior" Packard built before the 1940 model year. I noted elsewhere I recommend this should be done at least every two years . The oil pump intake is at the lowest portion of the oil pan - by cleaning it at regular intervals, you guarantee the oil pump never starts ingesting abrasive sludge.

Well, the Packard engines I have seen, up to the early 1950s, had by-pass filtration not full flow, whilst many other types (the majority of cars) from the 1920s, such as Fords, Hudsons, Austins, Morris, Alfa Romeo, to name but a few have nothing but a gauze around the oil pick-up, hence the issue with recirculating particles. By-pass filters commonly have a higher rate of micronic filtration than full-flow filters, but only filter on a 'sampling' basis. No filter will remove fluid products of partial combustion caused by piston blow-by, a result of a very long stroke and rudimentary piston ring design.

I am not talking about a simple 'meets manufacturers recommendations' phrase, I am referring to the SAE, or ACEA specification for the oil, which refers to the broad content of the lubricant additive pack, derived from extensive performance testing. And I am not confusing additive content with viscosity, which you clearly are.

What is crucial to oil and engine longevity is the oil change interval, particularly where full-flow filtration is not present. Packard recommended 500-1000 miles for my 533. With any modern oil it could go longer than that, but annual oil changes are very , very advisable. Something I discussed in my original post on synthetic oils. Regular oil changing will address the issue of accumulated sludge that you advocate so forcefully removing the sump to clean out. There is no doubt that would keep the engine very clean.

I am very bored with your dogmatic tone, in what had previously been a useful forum discussion. I shall therefore not respond to any further remarks.
"Do not underestimate the English cousin.....they are not as stupid as they look!" - Signor Altabani in The Italian Job.

KKarns
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:14 am

Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by KKarns » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:27 am

I'm new to this forum and have inherited an all original 1921 Single Six Sedan. Im preparing to go through the car and get it back on "the road". I gather from the lubrication discissions that an early Packard like mine could run with a detergent oil OR a non-detergent. My father's notes showed he used a 40W non-detergent. I was considering a 30W non-detergent but would the motor benefit from a modern 30W dtergent oil? Thanks, Ken.

Dave Czirr
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Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by Dave Czirr » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:04 am

Hi Ken:

I wouldn't even think for a second about using a detergent oil prior to dropping the oil pan and cleaning it and the oil pump intake screen. That's at a minimum. You might also want to pull the valve cover and see if there is accumulated sludge in there. If it seems reasonably clean you could try a detergent (I use a single viscosity SAE 30 detergent oil in my 1934 Packard) but I go for a early oil change, using your first change to detergent as a sort of flush.

Adam
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Location: lincolnshire, uk

Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by Adam » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:25 am

Hi Ken

Dave`s advice is spot-on. A 30 W oil would be perfect for your car, just look for one with a low detergent content unless, as Dave describes, you have removed and cleaned the sump and internals. Above all, change the oil very regularly. I do it once a year, with only a few hundred miles being accumulated in between changes.

It would be fantastic if you could post some pictures of you car, perhaps in the project blog section.

Kind regards
Adam..
"Do not underestimate the English cousin.....they are not as stupid as they look!" - Signor Altabani in The Italian Job.

KKarns
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:14 am

Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by KKarns » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:03 am

Sorry for the delay in response as family health issues got in the way...

Thanks much Dave and Adam for your advise on the crankcase oil recommendations. I will remove the sump and see how things look and perform a good cleaning before changing the oil.

Thanks again and I will post a couple pictures of my car to kick things off.

Ohio28Ford
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:13 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by Ohio28Ford » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:13 pm

That Hemmings motor oil, that has the phoporus and zinc in it, does anyone know what brand, and formula that really is?

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