1941 Packard Henney ?

Discussions on Henney and other makers of specialty Packard vehicles.
oldcarlvr
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:38 pm

1941 Packard Henney ?

Post by oldcarlvr » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:55 am

Hello me and Cousin thinking of purchasing a 41 packard 120 coach sedan henney built have some questions
car is rough
1. what are differences between a 41 packard 120 and a 41 packard henney except dual spare mount fenders and side trim saying henney and maybe back bumper accessory any other insight making it unique
2.confirm car? found theft number vin <597545>
3.Engine Number D311475 orD311476 ?
4.what is potential estimate of what cars value would be if totally restored (car is rough)
Is there any other Henney data trim info hidden somewhere other than firewall/cowl
Any help appreciated before we attempt to buy and pull out of field
Thanks
RB

PACKARDAPL
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Location: SE Missouri

Re: 1941 Packard Henney ?

Post by PACKARDAPL » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:33 am

HI; Okay, first the numbers suggest this is most likley a 1942 model built in the last months of 1941#
597--- is a higher number than the ones I have seen for a 1941. There is not a great deal of difference
between 41 & 42 120 Packards, basically some dash trim and fenders w/ lower grille on the bottom. The
differences between a Henney 41 (or 2) and a regular 41 packard are greater. Generally the front "clip"
is the same,(a 41 120 will fit a 42) but the Henney body is a custom constructed one on a heavy frame.
These were well built ambulances & hearses, a few still "work" today. The drive train is all Packard as is
the dash instruments etc. Cowl forward=Packard,to rear=Henney; So the body doors & rest of interior are
all Henney. there should be a Henney delivery plate on the cowl,underneith the front seat, or somewhere.
It will have the motor # the Henney Body order # (around 13,000) and a model number (42xx) also a delivery
date-likely Dec 41. 1942 models are relatively rarer than the 1941s as they were only made for 3 or 4 months.
The level of "rough" is subjective, and I could not venture more than a guess as to value. A really well done
restoration could easily go for $20 or $40 or more ;thousands to the right buyer. However they have wooden
floors & other components that will require lots of work, some missing items might be difficult to find. This
sounds like a worthwhile rare car to work with, but to do it right it might cost as much as it would be worth.
Partial restoration work would be valued at much less. Its really hard to say without inspecting the car.Be it
a 41 or 42 Henney it is an interesting find and worth pursuing.

Dave Czirr
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Re: 1941 Packard Henney ?

Post by Dave Czirr » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:13 am

PACKARDAPL, thanks for that response. Everytime you post I learn something new, and must admit I know very little about the Packard commercial vehicles. Hope to hear more from you.

Just commenting on the thief-proof #, 597545. This is well within the range of numbers for 1941. But, and it can be a sizeable but, where cowl stampings were unique to a low-volume speciality model, for example Henneys and right-hand-drive cars, it appears that Packard stamped, numbered and inventoried these cowls and then drew them from inventory, often in a last-in, first-out manner. Thus the thief-proof number is, in and of itself, not a good indicator of vehicle model year for low-volume bodies with unique cowls (whether the Henney has a unique cowl, I don't know but I'll bet PACKARDAPL can comment). As an example of this situation, we know of a right-hand-drive 23rd series 1950 car whose thief-proof number is near the very beginning of the 22nd series 1948 model run, and the same situation has been observed with a few 1951-54 Henneys.

Your motor #, D311475 or 6, is about 3/5 of the way thru the # series for a 1941 1901 and 1901A ('120") chassis.

PACKARDAPL
Posts: 193
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Location: SE Missouri

Re: 1941 Packard Henney ?

Post by PACKARDAPL » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:44 am

You can ID your year model by the grille placement on the front fenders. A horizontal grille at the bottom of
the front fender would indicate a '42. A curved potmetal grille -on each side with vertical vanes would be a 1941.
Either would be a good choice. The 120 Packard stuff of the appropriate year would generally fit the hearse also.
Many-but not all--1941 pts also fit a 1942. (6 cyl is diff & Clippers are diff also). 1940 will NOT fit. I know; as I
have tried all the combinations where I had sheet metal available. So a damaged or heavly rusted part may be replaced.

ON the numbers;
The firewall/cowl unit appears to be pretty much stock Packard.(Poss different Header)(some Henney modifications) According
to Dr.Blackman--among others--who have made a study of these numbers say that they were assigned in blocks. They were not
uniformly serial, but might skip many thousands in batches. Henney bought so many Packard parts, they got them by the box
car load and they did much of the chassis etc assembly. They would have gotten "skid'(s) of cowls with 5xxxxx to 5xxxx nos
to be drawn as Henney needed. Henney averaged 90/100 units a month so they did turn out the vehicles. Henney
could have very well used last-in first out numbered parts--Henney had their own order # that controlled the ordered
units that they built. The reason I thought it might be a 1942; I know where there is a 1942 -120-with a firewall number
of 5976XX, barely a hundred # away from the car you are looking at. I don't doubt the numbers are scrambled &
a few seem to be outside whatever the regular system was supposed to be. A high 1942 # would be around 650xxx.The
1942 models were panic time at Henney. They faced parts shortages, they had several large miltary contracts that HAD to be
filled ASAP. {100 Navy Ambulances & others} This in addition to a growing civilian business. Many of their sales were PAID
FOR units, so they had contract responsiblilities. When war was declared,an end to car production soon followed. Packard
aloted as many parts as priorities permitted. Henney scrounged their parts bins and built-out as many vehicles as possible
with the available materials.Earlier year substitution parts were used. Some units didnt get delivered until June 1942 as
a result. (See the Henney Book by McPhereson)

oldcarlvr
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:38 pm

Re: 1941 Packard Henney ?

Post by oldcarlvr » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:34 pm

Thanks so much for replying,This is definately a 126" inch wheelbase 4 door sedan so there is no way it is the longer box ambulance or hearse.I really need to know I guess is how do you really determine if its a henney other than that emblem and dual spare front clip? it is I guess a 41 because you just said in your reply the lower front fender grille is verticle like the center grille,but like I said we could find no other markings,so did budd body build it for packard? Did you also say that under the passenger seat front dash cowl henney put some kind of tag? So did Henney build regular 120 sedans and were they called coach sedans for businesss or government the condition is all fenders have rust out the spare wheel wells have rust out and the rockers plus trunk someone painted car with thick primer roll on paint to protect and all the trim but they were way to late. Any other Input is appreciated.
Thanks all who have inputed there advice.
Rich

Dave Czirr
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Re: 1941 Packard Henney ?

Post by Dave Czirr » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:16 pm

The regular Packard production bodies were built by Briggs.

How about a picture?

PACKARDAPL
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Re: 1941 Packard Henney ?

Post by PACKARDAPL » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:46 pm

It appears that you do indeed have a "Business Coach". These were semi-custom sedans built by Henney --
primarly used as family transport at a funeral home, or invalid coahes. These are relatively rare as well.
As to tags or numbers--a lot of those disappeared over the years. You might also look on (behind) side/door
panels for chalked on numbers. (My hearse had all kinds of chalked stuff on the bottom side of some wood panels.)
The bottom of the rear seat might also have a number marked, drilled/stamped on it. No telling if anything
is there, but worth a look. They usually were well built & appointed the way the other models were as much as
possible. This means--as said before--the chassis & front mostly stock '41 Packard ;the body, trim etc Henney.
Rust-out on the wheel wells on sidemounts is not too unusual. I'm not familiar with the business sedan
specifically, but I would assume that regular '41 fenders would replace the rusted ones if they are too bad for
use. Most Henney's had wooden floors over the metal frame and might need replacement in sections. IF the
trunk floor area used to be metal, you might measure the missing pieces and compare them with replacement
panels now on the market for the regular model '41 Packards. Good luck with your project.

oldcarlvr
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:38 pm

Re: 1941 Packard Henney ?

Post by oldcarlvr » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:58 pm

The right door underneath material has a stamp saying Budd Body and patent numbers,Thanks again for the quick response how rare do you think the business coach is? I only have a few cell phone pictures will try and post later

oldcarlvr
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:38 pm

Re: 1941 Packard Henney ?

Post by oldcarlvr » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:57 pm

Here are some photos they are from cell phone so not the best all car is painted with some heavy primer paint to late for sides and bottom but trim is good under the primer
Attachments
1941packard120henneyinterior.jpg
1941packard120henneyfrontside.jpg
1941packard120henneyfrontside.jpg (75.94 KiB) Viewed 6957 times
1941packard120henneyfront.jpg

Dave Czirr
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Re: 1941 Packard Henney ?

Post by Dave Czirr » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:29 pm

Thanks for the pictures - definately a 1941.

I've only had occasion to examine a single "business coach" over the years, that one a "160" for sale in the Poughkeepsie NY area a few years ago. It was an interesting car, factory A/C, a removeable right (passenger) side door post, and a few other features that differentiated it from the regular 160 sedans, for example it didn't have the 4 "whiskers" on the fenders. i spoke with Walt Gosden (Coachbuilt column in the CCCA magazine) and he sent me a copy of the 1941 business coach sales brochure. I don't recall if it just covered the 160 series or also included the 120, but if the latter, I may scan and post some pages from it.

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