1948 Standard 8 Overdrive Issue.

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Mistahnash
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:42 pm

1948 Standard 8 Overdrive Issue.

Post by Mistahnash » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:01 pm

Just starting to get our Packard road worthy. Took it for a test drive, every gear is good but it does not seem to want to go into overdrive. I believe this car has the overdrive option because it has the lockout nob. Curious what i should check to see what may or may not be functioning properly to engage overdrive. The lockout nob is pressed in all the way, had it up to around 30mph and according the the manual, it should shift into overdrive around 22mph.

Also I have the button for the electromatic clutch but it seems to either be stuck or not actually optioned on this car because i cant press it in at all.


Thanks for the help,
Zach.

Howard56
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Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:35 am

Re: 1948 Standard 8 Overdrive Issue.

Post by Howard56 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:28 pm

The 48 22nd series can have either an R9 overdrive if early production or the R11 if later. You need to determine which because they are different units mechanically and electrically. One check is to see which relay you have. The R9 has a 6 terminal almost square black box on the firewall about the size of the voltage regulator. The R11 has a smaller rectangular box with 4 terminals and a fuse on the side. Under the car, the R9 has the solenoid and lockout cable on the passenger side, the R11 has them on the drivers side.

First check on both units is verify power. The R9 has a fuse in an inline holder located near the starter motor supplying all power to the overdrive. There may be a switch in the power feed wire operated by the lower lever on the shift tube just above the steering box which cuts the power to the OD when in reverse. The other half of the switch operates a back up light if the car has that option. The R11 fuse on the side of the relay provides power to the solenoid only. The relay coil and control circuits operate via a feed from the ignition switch and thru the lockout switch. There may or may not be an inline fuse in that wire. It would be under the dash and probably near the ign switch.

Both units rely on the governor to complete a circuit to ground to bring in the relay to prepare for engagement. There are other switches involved but they are in different places providing either power or a ground path depending on which OD you have. Once you identify which OD we can give specific things to check.

The Electromatic was optional. If the option is not installed the switch is usually not present and the knob is mounted on a fixed stud to keep the space but does not move. If you have a large cylindrical object mounted to the head above the starter motor connected to accelerator linkage and vacuum tubing the option was present at one time. If the unit was not operational some parts may now be missing as mechanics took them off to work on something else and didn't replace them. If nothing is mounted you do not have the option.

Mistahnash
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:42 pm

Re: 1948 Standard 8 Overdrive Issue.

Post by Mistahnash » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:49 pm

I think its the R9 if im understanding your explanation properly. The cable runs along the firewall to the passenger side of the car to a lever on the transmission. I was thinking it was an issue with the cable because it was stuck but I got it freed up and moving but I still dont think its engaging. I took it for a drive down the road today, there is defiantly a difference when the overdrive is on or off but I dont feel it ever shift into overdrive when i let off the gas in 3rd and it seems to rev pretty high when at 40mph. When the lockout is engaged and i let off the gas in 3rd you feel the car start to slow like if you had a automatic and locked it into a gear at high RPMS and let of the gas( Not sure how to explain that), but it kinda coasts when the overdrive is engaged. I never feel it engage the overdrive and the RPM's sound and feel the same. Not sure how the overdrive is suppose to work, I assumed it was like any other car.

Howard56
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Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:35 am

Re: 1948 Standard 8 Overdrive Issue.

Post by Howard56 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:12 pm

Check that the lockout knob and cable is adjusted properly and moving the lever on side of OD full range. Knob out and the lever end is forward of vertical or about 4-5 o'clock and knob pushed in, the end is rearward at about 8:00.

The R9 has an indicator light which illuminates when speed is reached and it is OK for OD to engage. It should be the center light under the gauges. Bright light indicator is, I believe, on the left side and the turn signal indicator lamp on the right side. Assuming the bulb is good, if the center light illuminates somewhere between 20-30 MPH you have power and the circuit from the governor is OK. if no light, check that you have power on terminal 1 of the relay. If power is OK, with the car sitting and engine off use a short length of wire and ground terminal 5 of the relay. The relay should click, light illuminate, and there should also be a heavier click or even a clunk like sound from the solenoid under the car. If nothing happens with the relay, it is suspect.

If no power on terminal 1 check the fuse and also verify if you have a safety switch located just above the steering box. If you have the switch it must be adjusted so that the plunger is not touched and pressed by the lower lever in any gear except reverse. If the relay clicked when you grounded terminal 5 but not when driving, there is an electrical problem somewhere between the governor and terminal 5. It could be the governor, wiring or the lockout or kickdown switches.

If you did not hear noise from the solenoid have someone ground the relay while someone else goes under and verify voltage at both terminal 3 and terminal 4 of the solenoid. Both terminals must have voltage at the same time for the solenoid to work. If voltage is on both terminals, then the solenoid could need service or replacement. If the solenoid is making noise then the problem is most likely inside and is mechanical.
Attachments
R9 relay.jpg
R9 solenoid terminals.jpg
R9 OD.jpg
Last edited by Howard56 on Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Howard56
Posts: 1125
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:35 am

Re: 1948 Standard 8 Overdrive Issue.

Post by Howard56 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:38 pm

For detailed information on the R9 go to http://www.packardinfo.com and download the Serviceman's Training Book for the Econodrive. From the literature page which will be the page that opens the site, it is item 67 in the Service, Shop and Training Manual category. The book has a complete description of how the OD works and is serviced. There is also a troubleshooting section in the rear covering some common issues.

Mistahnash
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:42 pm

Re: 1948 Standard 8 Overdrive Issue.

Post by Mistahnash » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:25 am

Seems like the relay is a good place to start, has power to terminal 1. Tried grounding terminal 5 to the block in a few place and the battery with no click. Is there a way to test it out of the car, i know you can test the newer style ones with a car battery. I found a new one on max Merritt but $395 seems a bit crazy.

Also there are 4 terminals on the reverse lockout but only 2 wires going to it, is this normal? The fuse and one other wire right next to it are there but not the other 2.

Howard56
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Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:35 am

Re: 1948 Standard 8 Overdrive Issue.

Post by Howard56 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:11 am

You can test the relay out of the car. Just place one battery lead on terminal 1 and the other on terminal 5. As soon as the connection is made, referring to the relay as positioned in the photo above, the left side relay will energize. The right side relay coil is connected to terminal 4 which will be getting power when the left relay operates but should not energize because there is no ground side connection since the solenoid is not in the circuit.

You can bench test both items together by removing the solenoid from the OD and using heavy wire, connect the terminals following the diagram -- 3 to 3 and 4 to 4 and a heavy ground wire to the solenoid case. Just remember that the solenoid needs voltage on both 3 and 4 simultaneously to operate properly. Voltage on 3 alone and the hold coil is not strong enough to pull in the plunger. Voltage on 4 alone and as soon as the internal solenoid contacts open to disconnect the heavy pull in coil the plunger will drop out only to pull in and repeat the cycle in sort of a rapid machine gunning effect. The hold coil on 3 has to be in the circuit to keep the plunger extended when the solenoid contacts open. If you remove the solenoid follow the instructions in the training manual to extend the plunger when replacing it. Also note that when replacing the solenoid on the OD the orientation of the spacer must be correct. There is a small offset to the spacer so it is not symmetrical -- two small holes on the spacer go towards the rear of car.

The price for an R9 relay is high as they are in very short supply but they do turn up occasionally on ebay at a lower price. You do take a chance on used condition though without a reputable vendor to back up a purchase. Unlike an R11 relay, there is nothing repro'd or modern to substitute for the R9 assembly. The left side relay could probably be replaced with a modern type much as the R11 can be but the solenoid hold in coil being in series with the right side relay coil and the drop out speed needed to avoid killing the engine with the ign cutout circuit kind of makes coil resistance and operating specs important on that one. As far as I know, there has been no experiments to find any modern relays that might work as a substitute.

2 wires on the reverse lockout switch are OK. The other two terminals are used for the back up light which was an option you might not have. As long as the wires connected to the OD power are the pair of terminals next to the plunger button all is well.
Last edited by Howard56 on Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

Dave Czirr
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Re: 1948 Standard 8 Overdrive Issue.

Post by Dave Czirr » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:22 am

Just to go back to your earlier questions/observations which went unanswered, yes - when overdrive is locked out you will have "engine-braking", sometimes called compression braking, on deceleration when you take your foot off the accelerator. When overdrive is mechanically engaged, whether or not it electrically activates, you'll loose that engine braking and have what's called "free wheeling", i.e. the car coasts on downgrades without any engine compression to retard that motion.

Mistahnash
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:42 pm

Re: 1948 Standard 8 Overdrive Issue.

Post by Mistahnash » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:04 pm

Ok i removed the relay again and tested it using the battery. It does function but I cant seem to get it to work by grounding terminal 5 when its back in the car. Terminal 1 is getting over 6 volts. I made sure the connection leading from 1 to the bottom of the relay had power and it does. I also tested to see if voltage was getting to where terminal 5 connects to the yellow wire inside the relay housing and it is.

Howard56
Posts: 1125
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:35 am

Re: 1948 Standard 8 Overdrive Issue.

Post by Howard56 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:42 pm

Not sure what to say on that one. The terminal numbers are stamped on the terminals and visible with the screw and square wire guide removed. The relay is mounted differently depending on car and that has messed up a few as far as where 1 is located but if connecting the battery directly between 1 and 5 works on the bench the terminal numbers must be correct. There should be no difference when connecting in the car if the voltage is present on 1 and you making a ground on 5. If the battery cables have a good connection in the car then about the only thing I can think of is oxidation or rust either on the 5 terminal or where ever you are trying to connect ground to is preventing a connection.

All the governor does is connect ground to terminal 5 when the governor contact closes between 20-30 mph. The ground is supplied via a small screw making contact with a strip of metal on the plastic back of the governor from the governor case which is threaded into the OD. The governor contact is a normally open, normally closed type with the normally closed contact being for the Electromatic (EC) and not used in cars without that option. The extra wire is usually tucked up out of harms way. Later (51 on) governors do not have the extra wire. The ground gets to terminal 5 by going thru a couple of switches first.
Attachments
Governor bottom.jpg

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