Lubricant Recommendations

Discussions related to motor & gear oils, greases, anti-freezes, etc.
Dave Czirr
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Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by Dave Czirr » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:25 am

Since the publication of the article that begins this thread I've come to change my mind on gear oils for overdrive units. Previously I used SAE85W-140 EP gear oil in standard transmissions, differentials, steering gear boxes and overdrive units but I now believe that overdrive units are better served by a lower viscosity lubricant that has better and faster flow properties such as simple GL-1 SAE 90 gear oil.

auggiedoggie21
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Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by auggiedoggie21 » Sun May 29, 2016 4:27 pm

A poster in another web forum advised against using SAE85W-140 EP gear oil in anything but the differential, as the pressure would be too high for those components. He suggested using a GL-1 SAE 90W gear oil for the transmission and overdrive units, as well as the steering box. I'm about to do my first fluid swap on the tranny since I purchased this car and now I'm a little concerned as to which one I should use. Any thoughts?
1947 2106 Super Clipper

Dave Czirr
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Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by Dave Czirr » Mon May 30, 2016 4:44 am

Certainly nothing wrong with a simple GL-1 gear oil for the transmission, steering gear box, etc., that probably matches the OEM recommendation. I use the SAE 85-140 everywhere just for the convenience of only having one gear oil on hand; I've done so for 30++ years on a variety of Packards with no adverse effects so I feel comfortable that this is acceptable. Your "other poster" comments about the "pressure would be too high" is a curious comment as it seems to say the gear oil itself exerts pressure! The "pressure" relates to the force exerted by one gear face on another and lubricants for a hypoid differential gear sets are designated as "extreme pressure" or EP, meaning they are formulated for the extreme wiping and sliding pressures characteristic of hypoid gears. The concern about extreme pressure gear oils traditionally has been their compatibility with "yellow metals" and I don't believe this is a concern with modern formulations.

auggiedoggie21
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Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by auggiedoggie21 » Mon May 30, 2016 8:08 am

Thanks for the clarification, Dave! I will proceed with confidence with your suggestions in your previous post.
1947 2106 Super Clipper

DrMorbius
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Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by DrMorbius » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:20 pm

Anyone have any experience good/bad with Synthetic/Mobil 1? Someone I know swears his 9 main bearing engine runs smoother with it.

Steve

Adam
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Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by Adam » Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:01 am

I have written on this subject in the past on here.

'Synthetic oil' is blended from a synthetic base oil and a synthetic additive pack, or alternatively, a mineral base oil and a synthetic additive pack. Both types are common on the market. The additive pack consists of many components, broadly, it is detergents, anti-foaming agents, friction modifiers and things like that.

Conventional mineral oils contain many of the same additives. With this in mind, any modern oil is vastly superior to the oils the Packard engines were designed for. In some respects, too good, if for example you do not have full-flow filtration, then it is undesirable to use a high detergent oil that holds fine particles in suspension in stead of allowing them to sink to the bottom of the sump.

The main advantage of synthetic oil is that stays 'in grade' for longer under hard operating conditions. Perfect for modern high speed turbocharged petrol or diesel engines with exhaust aftertreatment. Synthetic oil would be fine in a Packard engine subject to correct viscosity and detergent levels, but the question you should ask is "is it really necessary?". The level of oil contamination in a classic engine caused by piston blow-by will probably necessitate an oil change long before a synthetic oil has become structurally challenged and as such, it is a bit of a waste.

In my classic engines, I use a mono-grade low detergent oil (SAE30 - SA), unless there is full-flow filtration, then I use a multi grade mineral oil (15-40 - SH). I change the oil every year (a few hundred miles) and all is well.

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with synthetic oil. It is just over-specified for the job in classic engines.

Another concern is that many modern oils, synthetic or mineral, designed for cars using catalytic after treatment (3 way cat or DPF) have a low zinc content and a low ash content. This can be detrimental in older engines with sliding contact between cam and cam follower and similar situations. It may be worth looking for an oil formulated for classic engines with a higher zinc content. Although I suspect that other friction modifiers have been included in the additive pack to compensate and any increased wear rate may still not manifest itself within anybody's lifetime.

Here is the oil supplier that I use, who formulates a range of oils for vintage cars and even steam engines:-

http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/produ ... steam.html

Adam..
Last edited by Adam on Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Do not underestimate the English cousin.....they are not as stupid as they look!" - Signor Altabani in The Italian Job.

DrMorbius
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Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by DrMorbius » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:30 pm

Adam, thank you for the timely info on oils. I just acquired a 1939 Super-8 and am getting ready to change the oil. Have to find out now if I have a full-flow filter or not.

Steve

Dave Czirr
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Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by Dave Czirr » Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:36 am

Packard introduced full-flow oil filtration in 1934 and retained in on their "senior" engines thru 1939, thus your '39 Super Eight has the system unless it's been modified over the years. The filter cartridges were Purolator L-8 which haven't been available for decades, but you can buy a replacement unit which houses a modern spin-on filter inside a reproduction of the original canister.

Prudence
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Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by Prudence » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:54 am

Good Morning all...I run Mobil-1 10-30 in our 1949 Packard 288 which has about 49,000 miles and an a stock oil filter system. I run it also in my 1931 Model A Ford which has about 8,000 miles on a carefully rebuilt engine which has an after market oil filtration system from Snyders Antique Auto. I also run it on my 1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee which has 249,000 miles and finally in my 2001 Jeep Wrangler with 194,000 miles on the clock. All four machines run very well. Mobil 1 will find its way through gaskets that will hold mineral oil inside, so there is a bit more wiping of engine blocks and pans to keep them neat. This is just my humble opinion. There are many good products to choose from. The key is to change oil regularly, use the viscosity that the manufacturer recommended, and keep the inside of your engine clean. Happy classic motoring. Ernie

Packard V12
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Re: Lubricant Recommendations

Post by Packard V12 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:55 am

[quote The oil pan on the straight eight Packard appears to be massive, I suspect taking it off and cleaning
the inside is not an easy task.[/quote]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not picking on this particular poster personally - very normal human condition of wanting to sound knowledgable. Trouble is - this human trait can do a lot of damage.

First of all, while many modern engines have "floating" oil pick-ups, early Packards do not. End result, the "fixed" oil pump intake sucks up whatever is in the very lowest regions of the oil pan.

It is inevitable that (even with the full-flow oil filters of '34-39 Seniors) a lot of crud eventually winds up sitting in the bottom of the oil pan, and then ingested into the oiling system.

If you want to keep ANY motor with a "fixed" oil pump intake running without bearing trouble, you MUST drop the oil pan at least every couple of years, wash it out with a solvent, and re-install.

Dropping the oil pan is no big deal. The oil pans on ALL "Senior" pre-war Packards are cast aluminum - very light in weight. Later ones are a light sheet-metal steel stamping. Just a matter of removing the cap-screws or nuts holding it in place. Shop tip. Use a gasket sealer on the BLOCK side of the pan gasket, just oil the PAN side. You will then not disturb the oil pan gasket - can re-use it for many many years of pan-cleaning.

On the pre-war Seniors - VERY easy to remove and re-install. Removing & re-installing the '38 & '39 Twelve oil pan does require about three minutes of extra work....back off the four 5/8 nuts on the center steering crank casting until just before they fall off, and shove that assembly forward. Now you can "drop" the oil pan without interference from the tie-rods. Yeah, removing some of the later post-war Packard oil pans is somewhat more troublesome.

Pre war oils tended to thin out at higher temps - so they recommended much heavier, thicker motor oils than are acceptable today. Any modern motor oil that meets modern SAE/ASTM tech. standards is fine, will not "thin out" at running temps. And no..."detergent oil" will not dissolve sludge. There is no such thing as "detergent" oil - that is simply an advertising slogan. The engineers correctly recognized the average non-tech. would not understand that all that is meant...is that the oil has chemical properties that prevent FURTHER "linking up" of the carbon particles that form sludge. As a side note, last time I over-hauled my own Packard Twelve, for test purposes I left some sludge up in the "webs" of the block casting. FIFTY years later of hard driving ( I do not "baby" mine ) with 10W-30 oil, the "test" sludge particle is still on that "web".

Packard engineers started recognizing the THINNER the oil the better, back in the late 1920's. The thinner the oil, the faster it can be pumped thru the bearings and take heat away. Yes, much of the internals of an internal combustion engine are OIL cooled! The thicker the oil you use, the faster you can guarantee bearing failure. Using a thick oil will not save your rod bearings - it may "quiet" badly worn rod bearings for a short period of time, but will simply hasten their destruction.

If you have some sadistic desire to ruin your Packard's motor - use a "non-detergent" single-grade 40 weight oil. Because it does not need to meet any tech. standard...it will thicken when cold. So about the worst thing you can do to any motor with thick oil when cold, is to start it. That thick oil cannot flow to the various critical surfaces - guarantees maximum wear and eventual engine failure.

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